I’ve never had a boring conversation with KindOne.

For that matter, I’ve never had a boring conversation with TenaciousOne, SpiritedOne, StrongOne, CharitableOne, SincereOne, EquitableOne, FearlessOne or DiscerningOne. Have I had a conversation with EfficientOne? Yes, I have — not boring.

I don’t think there is such a thing as a boring person, because people are mysterious, and if you were able to lift the veil and see into their soul, you’d find the most outrageous things. Their self-perception is often hilariously off-base and their short-term and long-term goals would blow your mind. Yes, it turns out he does plan to rule the world one day. Yes, she thinks that she’ll one day be the leader of her own religion.

Chesterton visited the issue of boredom and the idea of a boring person more than once. He was usually on the side of the person who was being accused of being boring.

After all, the stereotypical idea of a boring person is someone who is fascinated by stamp collecting or botany or other presumably dull topics, but he said that a person who was excitedly counting blades of grass was in fact a very interested person, and he said that those who easily dismiss topics or people as boring are the ones with the duller minds.

This is a fair point. People are interesting, and life is interesting, and learning about the reality of each other’s lives is entertaining enough.

But one must speak of reality here. Sometimes things are whitewashed to such an extent that there’s nothing left to talk about. Everything is perfect over here — what’s to discuss? That’s not reality, and for that reason, I’ve always wanted to get to a place where we could really talk.

Let’s talk.

Let’s talk about everything.

Let’s talk, for starters, about that elephant in the room.

In The Way, St. Josemaria Escriva writes:

You never want ‘to get to the bottom of things.’ At times, because of politeness. Other times — most times — because you fear hurting yourself. Sometimes again, because you fear hurting others. But always because of fear!

With that fear of digging for the truth you’ll never be a man of good judgment.

– The Way, 33

How many conversations have I had with people where they were so intent on ignoring What Just Happened? So many! Too many!

I present to them, on a platter as it were, a rather Major Issue.

They say, “My, the weather is fine.”

They say, “Have a great week! :) ”

They say, “Blessings on your day!!!”

Sigh.

Alright. Have it your way. Let’s talk about how you keep your Christmas tree looking fresh.

So although I insist that people are not boring, I say that there is most definitely such a thing as a boring conversation.

The number one characteristic of a dull conversation is not the fact that it happens to be an in-depth description of your own life events. Many people have apologized to me for making the conversation revolve around their own life situation, but I would reassure them. Life is interesting, whether it’s happening to you or to me.

Pour the tea and let’s carry on.

Mind you, one would hope that if Greta has a conversation with Hilda, Hilda will show interest in Greta’s life too, even if that’s not the main topic. I once had a conversation with someone I didn’t know well, and although we spent four hours together, she had no questions about me.

I know about her childhood, her siblings and their current troubles. I know about her in-laws and about their marital situation. I know why she and her husband chose those names for their children. I know about her plans for moving and where she has lived. I know what she thinks of her town and how she loves horses. I know about the career she had before she had children, and why she liked it so much. I know where she likes to buy her groceries and what photographer she likes. I know about her dog and about the games that her family likes to play with it. I know about her church and I know about how she felt and feels about Catholicism.

And yes, I know how she keeps her Christmas tree looking fresh.

But what does she know about me? What did she ask? She asked nothing. She asked nothing about my family, my past, my present or my future plans. She asked nothing about my career, my interests, my friends and my pets.

For all she knows, I own horses.

(I don’t.)

Mind you, horse people talk about their horses. That’s how you know they are horse people. If they didn’t talk about their horses, you wouldn’t know that they like to ride them and they have one named Cocoa Puff and Cocoa Puff has always been just the Very Best Horse that a person could have — so gentle with children and so easy to ride — and they weren’t planning to add another horse to their collection but then Wouldn’t You Know they just happened to come across Lightning and he was just so Beautiful and the owner just couldn’t keep him anymore and really, how could you say no and he just gets along with Cocoa Puff as if they’ve been together their whole horsey lives and the whole family just loves to take them out riding and it almost makes you forget about the days when they had Snowdrop who suddenly passed away last year after developing that infection and the veterinarian bills were through the roof but What Can You Do and isn’t it so good they Live Out in the Country?

Yes, it is. It’s good you live over there and I live over here.

I have nothing against horses, but I just don’t love them the way you do, I guess.

It strikes me that horses are unlike other pets in the extent to which they dominate one’s life. People are drawn towards living in the country because that’s where they can keep this pet, this cross between a dog and a motorbike.

You can go for a long time without knowing whether your new acquaintance has a dog or a cat, but you’ll know fairly early on that They Own a Horse or that they like show jumping or dressage. Ah, dressage, how many times have I heard mention of dressage!

But anyway, to return to my topic, seeing the inside of my home and my photographs prompted her to say nothing and ask nothing.

Amazing, really.

Who has a home which is utterly devoid of anything of interest? I have never been in a home where something did not capture my attention. Everyone has different ways of living and it’s such a personal space, revealing habits and priorities. As a matter of fact, there are usually so many new and varied things to see that you can miss noticing what is right under your nose. I once failed to immediately notice a gleaming brand new BMW motorcycle parked in the middle of a living room. It was fresh from the store and the owner was proud, while I was oblivious.

Ah, men and their bikes. Some are like girls and their ponies.

But anyway, in light of the fact that nothing about my life nor my space was worth inquiring about, we were left with conversational topics related to her life. I mean really, what can you do? I don’t want to talk about myself if you’re not interested. I won’t talk about what I think about food or parenting or photography or Catholicism or homeschooling or animals or housekeeping or law or theatre or fashion or hair or makeup

if you don’t want to hear what I think.

Why would I?

Nevertheless, I maintain that a conversation which takes, as its launching point, your life instead of mine, can still be plenty interesting to both of us.

However, here’s my caveat. Let’s do more than talk about the facts. He said this and you said that.

What’s your take? What do you make of it? What does it show us about life and about people in general?

She did this and then they did that.

What’s your take? What do you make of it? What does that show us about everything in general?

In other words, what’s the point? What conclusions have you come to? What have you learned? Or if you can’t make heads or tails of it, let’s puzzle it out together. I’ll tell you what I’ve noticed and you tell me what you’ve noticed. Putting our observations side by side and sharing our own tentative theories will be entirely fun.

That’s the ultimate — a sharing of perspectives on everything under the sun.

In dialogue, facts are just the starting point. A conversation which never goes beyond facts risks being deathly boring.

Try having a conversation which is all facts.

Greta: I was at the grocery store today and the person in front of me was buying ground beef, lasagna noodles and ricotta cheese. He was also buying salad ingredients.

Hilda: Oh, really? I sometimes buy just a few groceries myself.

Greta: When I came home, I made myself a bowl of oatmeal. I added raisins and a bit of milk.

Hilda: Mmm, sounds good. That’s a great meal, especially on a cold day. I also enjoy having breakfast type things at odd hours. Just the other day, for instance, I had an omelet near midnight!

Greta: Later I watched Cinderella, the movie that was released a couple of years ago. My sister told me she really enjoyed it, but I was rather disappointed in it. I didn’t like it as much as I thought I would.

Hilda: Oh, yes, I watched it too, and now I wonder if it was really worth the time.

Greta: In a few days I am going to go on a trip, so I’ve been really busy packing. I’m going to Lviv for a conference and I’ll be there for five days. Before I return home, I’m going to do a side trip into Poland.

Hilda: Oh, no way! How exciting for you! I’ve been to Ukraine, but never Poland.

Do you see what I mean? How boring!

There’s no spirit of exploration. The entire point of having all these facts in our lives is to make us THINK! The entire point of life is to raise our spirits to the bigger questions! Don’t just put one foot in front of the other and raise your spoon to your open mouth day after day! You’re more than an animal! You’re more than eating and sleeping! Open your mind, and wonder about everything! Consider everything — find the messages in the details of the day. God is speaking to you through the world around you, and if you cannot examine things and ask ‘why,’ then our multi-dimensional world will become, for you, as flat as a pancake.

Let’s go and visit Hilda and Greta again, but let’s make Greta more interesting. As for Hilda, we’ll leave her as is.

Greta: I was at the grocery store today and the person in front of me was buying ground beef, lasagna noodles and ricotta cheese. He was also buying salad ingredients. I was impressed — so often you see these guys at the store and it’s obvious that they’re bachelors. You know what I mean? They’re buying steak, a jug of milk and an apple pie.

Hilda: Oh, really? I sometimes buy just a few groceries myself.

Greta: When I came home, I made myself a bowl of oatmeal. I added raisins and a bit of milk. These days I’m being careful about what I eat. Oatmeal is a pretty good one — filling but not too high in calories.

Hilda: Mmm, sounds good. That’s a great meal, especially on a cold day. I also enjoy having breakfast type things at odd hours. Just the other day, for instance, I had an omelet near midnight!

Greta: Later I watched Cinderella, the movie that was released a couple of years ago. My sister told me she really enjoyed it, but I was rather disappointed in it. I didn’t like it as much as I thought I would. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised. Hollywood usually can’t get it right even when they begin with a good story. They reuse the same mold time and again, always with an eye on the box office.

Hilda: Oh, yes, I watched it too, and now I wonder if it was really worth the time.

Greta: In a few days I am going to go on a trip, so I’ve been really busy packing. I’m going to Lviv for a conference and I’ll be there for five days. Before I return home, I’m going to do a side trip into Poland. I’m not really a fan of travelling for the sake of travelling, but some cities are better than others, is my view. And Poland, well, who can dislike Poland?

Hilda: Oh, no way! How exciting for you! I’ve been to Ukraine, but never Poland.

See — now that’s getting a little better. You know more about what Greta really thinks, and she’s opened up some topics for exploration.

As for Hilda, she’s as agreeable as off-white drywall. You know nothing more about her because she’s playing things entirely safe. The mild and bland quality of Hilda’s comments means that Greta’s got more work to do. Keeping the conversation alive is going to be work because Hilda brings next-to-nothing to the table. She won’t show her hand, and it’s anybody’s guess what she really thinks. In such a scenario, Greta needs to come up with topic after topic in order to find something that might be able to go somewhere.

How about one more time? Let’s equip both of them with exploratory and active minds, along with a willingness to say what they think. Once again, the new stuff is italicized.

Greta: I was at the grocery store today and the person in front of me was buying ground beef, lasagna noodles and ricotta cheese. He was also buying salad ingredients. I was impressed — so often you see these guys at the store and it’s obvious that they’re bachelors. You know what I mean? They’re buying steak, a jug of milk and an apple pie.

Hilda: Oh, really? I sometimes buy just a few groceries myself, but usually it means I’ve forgotten something. And hey, didn’t you think Barb Duteau’s Facebook post was cute? She shared the one about playing the game of guess-what-was-on-the-grocery-list-that-I-left-on-the-table. That was funny. What do you think about Facebook?

. . . (conversation continues)

Greta: When I came home, I made myself a bowl of oatmeal. I added raisins and a bit of milk. These days I’m being careful about what I eat. Oatmeal is a pretty good one — filling but not too high in calories.

Hilda: Mmm, sounds good. That’s a great meal, especially on a cold day. I also enjoy having breakfast type things at odd hours. Just the other day, for instance, I had an omelet near midnight! I suppose that’s high in calories but satisfying your food craving isn’t a sin, is it?

. . . (conversation continues)

Greta: Later I watched Cinderella, the one released a couple of years ago. My sister told me she really enjoyed it, but I was rather disappointed in it. I didn’t like it as much as I thought I would. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised. Hollywood usually can’t get it right even when they begin with a good story. They reuse the same mold time and again, always with an eye on the box office.

Hilda: Oh, yes, I watched it too, and now I wonder if it was really worth the time. I totally agree about Hollywood, but I’ve enjoyed some things over the years. I’ve always really enjoyed Meet the Parents, for instance, because I think it explored some very interesting themes in an effective way. But yeah, Cinderella — hoo boy!

. . . (conversation continues)

Greta: In a few days I am going to go on a trip, so I’ve been really busy packing. I’m going to Lviv for a conference and I’ll be there for five days. Before I return home, I’m going to do a side trip into Poland. I’m not really a fan of travelling for the sake of travelling, but some cities are better than others, is my view. And Poland, well, who can dislike Poland?

Hilda: Oh, no way! How exciting for you! I’ve been to Ukraine, but never Poland. I think you’ll love Lviv, because although it’s more touristy than some places in Ukraine, you can really feel like one of the locals, hanging around in the cafes and restaurants. Mind you, with a face like yours, a person wouldn’t exactly blend in . . .

. . . (conversation continues)

In sum, if you must speak exclusively about yourself, let’s take it to the next level. Don’t just tell me that you bought something. Tell me why you bought it and why it’s important to you. Don’t just tell me that your cousin said such-and-such — tell me why you have an issue with what your cousin said. That’s conversation.

Conversation is back and forth. The idea is to climb from the real facts at hand into the world of ideas. It’s like going for a hike — step by step you walk together up the steep path and eventually you make it to the top. You survey the view — you started down there and now you’re up here. Together you’ve now made sense of another slice of life.

And when I say “the real facts at hand,” I condemn the all-too-prevalent practice of turning a blind eye to outstanding issues, as I said above. I wouldn’t be surprised if this tendency to avoid talking about obvious issues is stronger in ‘polite’ countries, such as Canada. On the other hand, St. Josemaria Escriva was from Spain. It’s an unfortunate tendency, and leads to layers of superficiality in relationships.

Avoiding hard topics is arguably a way of saying that a person’s concerns are not valid or worthy of attention, and as St. Josemaria Escriva says, it will prevent the avoider from developing into a person of good judgment. Avoiding difficult topics is for the cowardly and immature.

Don’t pretend it just didn’t happen. Don’t ignore your wrongdoing.

Do you really think that my memory is so short that I have already forgotten about your recent failure to live up to your commitments to me? Is my memory so short that I have forgotten about the time you didn’t show, with only the vaguest of explanations, and about the time you were 45 minutes late, with no explanation? Does a casual conversation about Christmas lights make everything better? Am I that easily distracted?

Do you think my memory is so short that I have forgotten your lack of empathy in my moment of trouble? Does a bag of cookies make everything better?

Do you think that my memory is so short that I have forgotten those emails where you soundly defamed me, the ones I was never meant to see? Does a reference to the size of the moon make everything better?

Let’s say it doesn’t. Let’s say that if you really want to begin again, it’s best to address what’s happened between us. A good relationship faces reality — the real facts at hand. I don’t mind looking at the moon, but let’s not ignore the ground that needs to be covered.

So sure, let’s talk.

Let’s talk, but let’s make it worth our while. Let’s make it interesting and let’s make it fresh — a discussion of experiences and an exchange of ideas.

It’s your turn and then it’s mine. We’ll go this way and that and zigzag and return. That’s how we’ll talk. What do you think?

If that’s not your idea of a good time, then I’ll just move along.

After all, if I want an entirely one-sided conversation, I’ve got this thing called a blog.